Curse

NIB · Jul 31, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I was actually wondering how these 2 skills work when used together. Dont tell me that shielding hands sucks cause with zephyr it can be pretty good(with only 12.5 secs recharge, you can keep "spamming" it). It also "masks" protective spirit pretty good(so that the enemy will remove shielding hands instead of prot spirit).

Anyway, my question is how is dmg calculated when someone has both of these enchantments on him/her. If for example i have 500hp and both of these enchantments and someone does 100dmg(after the armor) to me, what would happen?

Will the protective spirit reduce that dmg down to 50 and then the hands will reduce the dmg even more, to like 30dmg? Or will it calculate shielding hands first, reduce the dmg down to 80 and then the protective spirit will take in effect and reduce the dmg down to 50.

In the second case, its obvious that shielding hands are useless when combined with protective spirit(and generally useless, since most of the time you will get prot spirit up first). Maybe the sequence that you cast them affects the way they are calculated?

PS Seriously, whats the deal with all those ppl still using lifebonds/boon for prot builds? Dont they play tombs anymore? Cause most teams(even non ranger teams) in tombs use nature's renewal.

rii · Jul 31, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I believe that it works in casting order, so if you do spirit -> hands, itll reduce to 50 then - whatever
If you do hands -> spirit then itll - whatever, then reduce to 50.
Its not useless if you do it the right way around

People who use enchants either havent heard or have an enchant (e.g. boon) which is more spammable than nr, and is cheap enough to get away with recasting. Lifebonds and so on can work in arena, but dont know about tombs.

NIB · Jul 31, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

With boon, you cast less spells(cause you have less energy). By casting less spells, you take less advantage of the divine healing bonus. Boon was good back in the day, against spike teams. Then you needed spike healing to counter the massive dmg done in minimum time on 1 specific target.

Here is an expample that proves that boon isnt as godlike as some think. Assume we have a monk with 14 healing and 12 divine. With those stats, boon heals 61hp, divine bonus is 38hp, orizon heals for 67hp and our monk has 40 energy pool. Now lets see how will that monk perform during a 3minute nonstop battle. I assume that boon isnt removed and that boon is used only on 1 target(which is the ideal usage for boon).

Without Boon
Total energy = 40 + 240(from the 4 arrow regen)
Total orizons casted = 56
Total hp healed = 56x67 + 56x38 = 5880hp

With boon
Total energy = 40 + 180 (from the 3 arrow regen)
Total orizons+boon casted = 31
Total hp healed = 31x67 + 31x38 + 31x61 = 5149hp

So its obvious that you can heal more hp without boon, than with boon. And that’s the ideal scenario where you don’t have to recast boon. Of course, you lack the spike heal ability, but you also don’t waste healed hp by overhealing(which is common when using high hp healing skills).

Obviously, if you have blessed signet and you use it efficiently, the –1 energy regen is pretty much negated. But blessed signet has 2secs casting time and you can only have so many skill slots. I am not saying that boon sucks but I am so pissed off with the “omg, boon roxors” attitude that many ppl have.

Btw i dont know how boon works with zephyr. Does zephyr increase boon's cost? Cause if i can use orizon+boon and pay like 7 energy for the orizon +2 energy for boon(only 9 energy in total) then boon might still be useful. Cause you simply cant afford casting many seperate spells with zephyr, so getting the most out of 1 spell would awsome.

So many questions, so few ppl that can actually answer. Its sad that ppl think they are leet just cause they have 10k fame, but many of them don’t even know the basic game mechanics.

thetrojansheep · Aug 01, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

I think that, like rii said, the ywork in the order they're casted. Also however, i have another question along the same lines:

Aegis + Guardian?

is it a 50% of 50% (= 75%)
or is it 50% then 50% more..?

twicky_kid · Aug 01, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

yes the affects work together and doesn't matter which one you cast first. pro spirit reduces the dmg first no matter what. then your other enchantments take affect.

order is absorption>pro spirit or bond>other enchantments

rii · Aug 01, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Dont make me find the link, but it was mathematically proven that to make boon more efficient than orison unlinked you need to cast orison once or more every 4 seconds.

yc525 · Aug 01, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

if you are smart enough to do the calculations for boon and non boon, then you should be aware that boon healers run either PH or Offering for energy regen and therefore taking advantage of boon...

NIB · Aug 02, 2005, 12:05 PM // 12:05

What is PH? Anyway, you can still use offering without boon. That extra energy is better to be spent on multiple orisons than on fewer orizons+boon. Its not only the -1 energy regen that hurts your efficiency, its the fact that you cast less spells therefore taking less advantage of divine healing bonus.

Lets see how blood works. 10% sacrifice of max hp = 50-60hp. Plus the 5 energy cost, you are looking at roughly a 7-8 energy cost(lets say 7 cause I want to be nice :P), if you include the cost of getting yourself healed. And you gain 16 energy(with 10 blood). So the actual profit is 9 energy every 15 secs. Now lets do some more math again. I assume you cast blood every 15secs.

Without Boon
Total energy = 40 + 240 + 108(with offering every 15secs and 4 energy regen) = 388
Total orizons casted = 76
Total hp healed = 76x67 + 76x38 = 7980

With Boon
Total energy = 40 + 180 + 108 (with offering every 15secs and 3 energy regen) = 328
Total orizons+boon casted = 46
Total hp healed = 46x67 + 46x38 + 46x61 = 7636

Again, you can heal more without boon than with boon. But cause you have a secondary energy income source, the difference is smaller, cause energy regen isnt your only source of energy income anymore.

PS For the shake of simplicity, I don’t calculate casting and recharge times(except recharge of offering). I only use orizon, cause it’s a basic, all around healing skill that doesn’t have any tricky modifiers.

Aug 02, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

bad comparisons. Remember your not concerned about total healing over a time span, you want to be concerned with spike heals and efficiency of raising a bar to full hp.

You heal more with boon than without and it doesn't take math for this to be seen.

Narcissus · Aug 02, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIB

What is PH?

Peace and Harmony. It's mainly to offset the loss of your energy regen arrow from divine boon.

NIB · Aug 03, 2005, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

bad comparisons. Remember your not concerned about total healing over a time span, you want to be concerned with spike heals and efficiency of raising a bar to full hp.

Spike heals? Why would i need spike heals? Most teams are ranger and smiting teams now in tombs. I dont need spike heal anymore, i need overal efficiency.

Quote:

You heal more with boon than without and it doesn't take math for this to be seen.

Would you care to support this claim? I dont think my math are anything extremely complex.

Quote:

Peace and Harmony. It's mainly to offset the loss of your energy regen arrow from divine boon.

It doesnt matter. You can heal more with just orizons while using PH than with orizon+boon. The example with offering of blood proves that.

telarin · Aug 03, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

I dont think you will just be casting orison of healing all the time. the monk might be specced in protection and use boon to heal 100hp with each protection spell cast. dmg avoided is better than healing the dmg taken.

NIB · Aug 03, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

You are getting off topic. Yes, you might as well use warrior skills and heal yourself? But its totally irrelevant with my point. My point is that you can heal more without boon than you can with boon. And obviously i am refering to healer monks. But actually, i can sit down and do the same math with reversal and prove my point even for protector monks. But cause reversal is so conditional, its hard to make a theory.

But if we assume that the average dmg you get is 40(and your reversal is high enough to cover that), so you will be saving 80hp, then you will see that you can "heal" more hp without boon than with boon. Just take my first example and replace the 67hp of orizon with the 80hp of reversal. Except reversal can save you 20hp-120hp so taking an arbitary number(like 80) isnt that accurate.

Boon isnt free. Boon doesnt cost only 2 energy. Boon costs 2 energy + 1/4 of all your future casted spells(minus your starting energy pool). And by casting less skills, you take less advantage of divine favor healing bonus. And as my very basic maths proved, you will heal less hp over time.

Zell Murasame · Aug 05, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Sheilding Hands reduces the damage, then you receive that damage. This is then reduced to a maximum of 10% of your maximum Health. Therefore, Protective Spirit/Bond nullifies Shielding Hands... on one target of coarse.